A simple reasoning
According to non trinitarians Jesus came after the Father. So Father is the first being and Jesus is the second being in this universe.
Father claims “I am the first, and I am the last;” and Jesus also claims “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.”
Is it not a lie; When Jesus being the second person in this universe and first being God the Father how can He claim that He is first like God the Father.
Also God the Father claims “beside me there is no God.”; Bible says that Jesus is God.
Where is the error here. Is it with Trinity or non trinity?
There are 4 types of doctrines on God
1. SDA and other protestant churches- Believe all 3 persons of Godhead Father, Son and Holy Ghost existed throughout eternity. They are coequal and co-eternal
2. Catholics – Believe God the Father alone existed throughout eternity; Jesus came out of Father; Holy Spirit came out of both Father and Son
3. Arians like Jehovah Witnesses – Believe that God the Father alone existed throughout eternity; Jesus Christ is the first creation of God and Holy Spirit is the Power of God.
4. Semi – Arians like WCG, CLG – Believe that Jesus came out of Father and Holy Spirit is another form of Jesus.
I have tried to cover most of the questions on trinity. Will try to add more questions and answers on this topic.
1. Is Jesus equal with God?
Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped (something which has to be possessed), but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death — even death on a cross! ! Phil 2:6-8 NIV (1984 edition) Emphasis by me
Paul tells that Jesus left His equality with God and humbled Himself to a lower position
2. Is not Jesus came out of Father because Bible calls Him as begotten?
God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. Acts 13:33
The word begotten does n’t necessarily mean ‘gave birth to’. Paul says that Jesus was begotten in that he hath raised up Jesus. For the plan of salvation Jesus, the second person in the Godhead, offered Himself to die as penalty for Sin. It is decided that God will raise up Jesus after His death; in this Jesus was begotten by God as His Son.
Paul didn’t gave birth to anyone but see how he uses the word begotten
For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. 1 Cor 4:15
I beseech thee for my son Onesimus, whom I have begotten in my bonds: Phi 1:4
The proclamation in Heb 1:5 shows that Jesus and God existed without the Father and Son relationship before God announced Jesus that He will be His Son.
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? Heb 1:5
3. Is not Bible call Jesus as the only begotten son of God. When Jesus is the only person whom God gave birth to and rest were created?
By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son Heb 11:17
Isaac is called as the only begotten son of Abraham when Abraham had another son.
4. Is not Jesus the first born of all creatures?
if you see verses like James 1:18 tells us that the firstfruit among someone need not be the literal first person it can be the best among them.
Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. James 1:18
Another example is when 144000 are called the firstfruits among saved.
These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. Revelation 14:4
Now if we take the firstfruits to be literal first persons the above passages will give us a contradiction.
Few more examples is when David is called as firstborn among Kings. Psa 89:27 Here the firstborn does not mean that the firstperson who was born as king.
Jesus is called as first born among creatures in col 1:15; does that mean he is the first ‘born’ creation no instead both the passages tell us that they are the best. David among Kings and Jesus among all beings.
After arriving at the conclusion that the firstfruit and firstborn can be the best instead of literal first person let us read
All the best of the oil, and all the best of the wine, and of the wheat, the firstfruits of them which they shall offer unto the LORD, them have I given thee. Numbers 18:12
Here the best of the oil, the best of the vine and of the wheat are called the first fruits.
Even though Moses Jud 9 and 24 elders Mat 27:52, 53 had resurrected before Jesus; Jesus is the first fruit among them because he is the best.
5. Why He is considered as a creature in Col 1:15
The reason being; He became a created being; From someone equal with God; He created Himself to be a humble being.
We know from John 1:3 that Jesus created Himself.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:3
All created things are created by him; There is no created thing which is not created by him. If Jesus is a created being then logically according to John 1:3 Jesus created Himself.
6. Is not Jesus the beginning of creation of God (Rev 3:14) ?
Answer to question 5 answers question 6 also. Jesus created himself to be an Angel Michael -the first created being.
7. Is not Holy Spirit the spirit of God and not a separate being?
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. Rom 8:26,27
The Holy Spirit makes intercession for the saints and God hears what the Spirit is praying for He (Spirit) makes intercession according to the will of God.
8. Does not Bible refer the Father alone as God?
It does always refer Father as God. It is because the triune Godhead foresaw the rise of sin and decided to put forth the plan of redemption. Sin is the transgression of God’s law. God’s law is expression of His Character. Opposite to God’s character is evil. Sin is evil. The plan of redemption is this. God made universal law which is the expression of His character. As long as the created beings reflect His character of love there will be universal peace and harmony among His subjects. When His Laws are broken then there will be chaos and sufferings. These 3 eternal beings foresaw that. So one of them became an Angel called Michael. He is the Chief of all Angels – The Archangel. He will be subject to the law and serve God and set an example to others. When other created beings see that God Himself is subject to the law and will learn how delightful and mandatory it is. The third person of Godhead will work from the heart of create beings and help them to obey the law and reflect God’s character. He will be the representative of Godhead among living beings. Christ will be the representative of living beings in the Godhead.
Psalms 2 teaches us this
1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying,
3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
(It talks about the rise of sin)
4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
(It talks about the plan of salvation made)
6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.
(The plan of salvation is made and Jesus was begotten as son for the plan of Salvation. Jesus will die as penalty: and God would raise Jesus from dead. Also refer question # 2)
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
(Holy Spirit speaking here; This speaks of the role of Holy Spirit; He brings people to God and warn them of Judgement)
9. Did not Isaiah tells that besides God there is no other God?
If you use that statement to teach that Jesus is not God then we will be contradicting lot of other statements.For example John 1:1 says that Jesus is God. In Isa 43 the Godhead is speaking for themselves addressing with the common name Jehovah.
In Isaiah God claims that “I am the first, and I am the last;” and Jesus also claims “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.”
10. How do we know that there 3 persons in Godhead?
2 cor 14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.
Matthew 28 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the… Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Matthew 3 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
1 John 5 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.(Is it true that 1 John 5:7 is not in any Greek manuscript before the 1600s? If it is true, why is it there in the King James Bible? (Check: http://www.chick.com/ask/articles/1john57.asp)
11. Did not Jesus promise to return as another comforter which is Holy Spirit. It is Jesus Himself who came since He promised to return?
John 14 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. (Jesus is a comforter and He is sending another comforter)
John 16 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. .. 13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear [from Father] , that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. (Holy Spirit takes from Jesus and speaks)
Jesus said when His discplies saw Jesus they saw the Father similiarly Jesus abides with us through the third person of Godhead – Holy Spirit who is His representative. That is why He is called as the Spirit of Jesus.
1. 2 cor 14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.
2. Matthew 28 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
3. Matthew 3 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
4. 1 John 5 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
(Is it true that 1 John 5:7 is not in any Greek manuscript before the 1600s? If it is true, why is it there in the King James Bible?
5. John 14 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
(Jesus is a comforter and He is sending another comforter)
6. John 16 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. .. 13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear [from Father] , that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
(Spirit can hear, He does not speaks of himself, that is why you don’t read much about Holy Spirit)
7. 1 cor 12 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
(The Spirit has Will )
Bible uses the word Godhead instead of trinity…
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.