Problems with the popular Christian teaching of Hell and Death

Problems with the popular Christian teaching of Hell and Death .

a) Does man go to Hell or heaven as soon as he dies. Bible says the eternal life or condemnation will be given only after second coming.

John 5:  28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,  29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

1 Thes 4:16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Daniel 12: 1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.  2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

b) Is God a God of Love or not.

Is our God really a God of love?

If yes, then why He torments sinners for millions and millions of years without any relief?

If a sinner lives for 25 years; will a God of love and justice torment the sinner for 25 million years?

c)What is the wages for sin? What does Bible say as the wages fo sin?

Is it Death or eternal torment?

Jesus was punished on our behalf so we will not face the eternal death. The punishment He received for sins is death not torment in hell fire

If man can be burned up forever and ever then he should be immortal and possess eterlnal life already.

but Bible promises eternal life only after the day of second coming.

d) Bible tells both Satan and wicked will be destroyed forver. We will deal with the verses which appear to teach that wicked will burn forever and ever.

Rev 20:9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

When talking about the Fate of Satan in Eze 28: 18Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.  19All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

John 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (When righteous will have eternal life the wicked will perish, i.e., cease to exist)

e) After death, The dead know nothing, they will be in a state of unconsciousness.

Eccl. 9:5,6,10 “For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.Whatsoever thy hand finds to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither you go.

Psalms 6.5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Psalms 146.4 His breath goes forth, he returns to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Job 14.10-15 But man dies, and wastes away: yes, man gives up the ghost, and where is he? So man lies down, and rises not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. O that you would hide me in the grave, that you would keep me secret, until your wrath be past, that you will appoint me a set time, and remember me!  If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee:

f) After death, Bible calls it as a period of sleep. It is not a period of bliss or torment.

Job 3.11 Why died I not at birth?… For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest.

1 Thess. 4.14-17 “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which SLEEP in Jesus will God bring with him. vs. 4:13 “But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.” Jesus will bring the sleeping saints home to heaven as well! He will raise them with a shout, with the trump of God,

Acts 13.36 “For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, FELL ON SLEEP, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:”

Matthew 9.24 “He said unto them (the mourners), Make room: for the maid is not dead, but sleeps. And they laughed him to scorn.” “For they knew she was dead.”(see also Luke 8:53)

Deut. 31:16 Moses was told he would sleep with his fathers

1 Kings 2:10 David slept with his fathers

Daniel 12:2 after a time of trouble, Michael will arise and the dead will awake from the dust of the earth

Matthew 9:24 Jesus described the dead girl as sleeping

Matthew 27:52-53 after the resurrection of Jesus, many dead saints arose from their sleep and appeared to many

John 11:11 Jesus described the death of Lazarus as a sleep

Acts 7:60 when Stephen was martyred he fell asleep

1 Cor. 15:18 Paul describes the dead as asleep until the resurrection of the dead

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55 thoughts on “Problems with the popular Christian teaching of Hell and Death

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  1. God is precise Rev 22:18-19 no one must add to or take away from the words of the book of Revelation : It is a woman Rev 12 that delivers the true word John1:1, Rev 12:5, Rev 12:13 who restores Acts 3:21 all things to the world before Christ’s return. This woman exposes the lies of Satan who has deceived the whole world Rev 12:9. This woman creates a new thing in the earth by fulfilling God’s promise to Eve Gen 3:15, Jer 31:22, Isa 14:16. Moses and Elijah are together with the word Matt 17:3 they all three are in this one woman. She is like unto Moses Num 12:3. She was raised up Acts 3:22 from the Laodicean church that becomes lukewarm because they refused to hear her Rev 3:14-17. She is bold like Elijah Matt 17:11, Luke 1:17. As Elijah was alone declaring the true God to the people so also her witness alone turns the hearts of the fathers to the children Mal 4:5-6 to prepare a people for the Lords return before the great and dreadful day of the Lord Matt 17:3, Luke 9:30. Those who will not hear Acts 3:23 the true word of God she now deliveres to the world free of charge, as a witness, at the heel of time from the wilderness Rev 12:6 will not be allowed inside the walls of God’s coming kingdom from heaven Rev 21. This true testimony of the true value of the blood of the Lamb delivers the truth that not one child of God will be put in a hell fire no matter what their sins. It never entered the heart or mind of God to ever do such a thing Jer 7:31, Jer 19:5. God created evil Isa 45:7 to teach his children the knowledge of good and evil Rom 8:7, Gen 3:22 so that at their resurrection they become a god Matt 22:29-30, Ps 82:6. Prove all things. You cannot rightly judge this unless you read all that has been written by this woman first Pro 18:13. http://minigoodtale.wordpress.com Check out the bruising of Satan and the reason for all of mankind’s sufferings.

  2. Hi John Paul,

    According to your state of the dead position:

    Why does Jesus portray the dead as being alive, aware, communicative and recognizable in His parable of the rich man and the beggar, and why does John in Revelation, portray the souls under the altar as alive, aware and communicative and in need of robes to wear?

    Would Jesus and John really use lies about the dead, to make a point of any kind?

    Why in Matthew 22:32, does Jesus say this, “‘I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

    If Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are dead in the SDA sense of the word dead, then what does Jesus mean when He says, “He is not the God of the dead but the living” after naming 3 men who are dead, that God IS the God of?

    Also, John Paul, you said:

    “If man can be burned up forever and ever then he should be immortal and possess eternal life already.”

    According to how you use “immortal” in that statement above … you actually end up with a similar problem as what you view other Christians as having with their state of the dead position.

    IF I define immortal according to how you used the term … it creates a theological problem for me. There will be some who are alive at the 2nd Coming. If they never face death, before they are translated, then that would mean they were born immortal. And we know that can’t be true, because only God is immortal. And humans can’t become immortal until they receive imperishable bodies at the 2nd coming. So those in hell can’t ever be considered immortal because they’ll never receive imperishable bodies.

    Eager to hear your thoughts,

    Ane

  3. Parable of Richman and Lazarus has two dead characters talking to each other. But other Bible passages say that Dead don’t now anything and they don’t communicate. Is there any contradictions in Bible.

    Bible also tells us that the Jews at the time of teaching believed in many Pagan teaching including reincarnation and eternal torture in hell.

    One such example is Jews asking John whether he is the reincarnated Elijah to that John replies ‘no’ but Jesus tells us that John came with the spirit of Elijah,

    And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No John 1:21

    And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

    But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them Matthew 17:10-12

    Second event is when the disciples of Jesus asking Him about a man born blind asking whether he was born blind because of his sins(in previous birth)

    And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. John 9:2-3

    Jesus sometimes meet them in their own ground. For example Jesus calls a gentile woman as dog (he is using the words of Jews to teach them a lesson)

    Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs. Matthew 15:25-26

    Apostle Paul also uses a similiar style of teaching. Dead cannot be baptised since they can’t choose salvation after they die and their probation is already closed. But Paul mentions that to teach them that there is resurrection of dead.

    Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? 1 Corinthians 15:29

    Jesus uses the pagan teaching of eternal torture in hell to teach Jews a lesson. Remember Jesus didn’t tell them that Lazarus was righteous and he deserved Heaven. Lazarus was just a beggar who lacked any earthly pleasure (symbolizing gentiles whom jews considered as ones lacking knowledge of true God) but will be provided the gospel and inheritance as seed of Abraham (He is shown sitting in bosom of Abraham) whereas the rich man who had all pleasures (symbolizing jews who had the law and prophets) will be denied Abraham’s bosom because they didnt believe in the law and prophets.

  4. John when I read Eccesiatics 9:5-6, in context … I see it saying the dead know not anything UNDER THE SUN.

     5 For the living know that they will die,
       but the dead know nothing;
    they have no further reward,
       and even their name is forgotten.
    6 Their love, their hate
       and their jealousy have long since vanished;
    never again will they have a part
       in anything that happens under the sun. —Ecclesiastics 9:5-6

    Also what about Hebrews 12. Hebrews 11 just described all the great Bible heros and then opens up in Hebrews 12 calling them a great cloud of witnesses. Witnesses can’t be dead????

    “Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us,” —Hebrews 12:1

  5. Why in Matthew 22:32, does Jesus say this, “‘I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

    If you see the whole passage it is talking about resurrection of Dead. For example verse 23The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him

    Jesus who assures them that there is resurrection tells them that “‘I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

    It means they have the assurance of ressurection. The whole passage is not talking about a life after death instead it talks about the promise of ressurection

  6. Also Rev 6: 9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

    The “souls” (dead saints) crying “avenge our blood” (vs. 10) is akin to Abel’s blood (his life [note Lev. 17:14]) crying to God from the earth (Gen. 4:10). Since blood does not talk and neither do the dead (Psa. 115:17; Ecc. 9:5, 10), we understand the meaning to be symbolic, not literal. Therefore, the “souls under the altar” represent those awaiting the future martyrdom of saints.

    If we take Rev 6: 9-11 literal then we will be surprised to find the attitude of slain saint ” they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth”

    This is in contrast with the attitute and spirit of saints who like Stephen cry out ” And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.” Acts 7:60

  7. I can see your point about the Hebrews 11 & 12 passage.

    Still wrestling with your point about Matthew 22:32.

    I realize parables are allegories and not meant to be literal. However, the parable of the richman and the beggar is the only parable Jesus told, where He actually used real names of people. Because I grew up being taught that dead people talking was a satanic lie that other Christians had fallen for … it just seems shocking to me that Jesus and John would use satanic lies to make a point or try to teach truth.

    Here’s what started my questioning, regarding the SDA belief on the state of the dead and is what caused me to have to rethink everything I’d been taught about it.

    I grew up being taught that Moses was raised from the dead, given an imperishable body and taken to heaven.

    Recently I realized that such a fact is no where to be found in the Bible anywhere. Also I came to realize that such a fact as that contradicts 1 Cor. 15, which says that Jesus had to be the first one raised from the dead, given an imperishable body and taken to heaven.

    If Moses went first, then that would be a direct contradiction to what Paul is teaching.

    In Deuteronomy 34:1-12 we are told Moses died, God buried him, and no one knows where. Nothing is ever mentioned about a resurrection. Next consider what God said to Joshua after the death of Moses:

    Now it came about after the death of Moses the servant of the LORD, that the LORD spoke to Joshua the son of Nun, Moses’ servant, saying, “Moses My servant is dead; now therefore arise, cross this Jordan, you and all this people, to the land which I am giving to them, to the sons of Israel. —Joshua 1:1-2

    God just said Moses is DEAD. If indeed Moses was resurrected, why would God say he was “dead?” Surely after we have imperishable resurrection bodies we will no longer be referred to as “dead.”

    It appears to me that SDAs cannot renounce their teaching on Moses, because they need him to have been resurrected in order to place him at the transfiguration.

    Other Christians do not have that problem and are shocked by the SDA teaching of Moses being raised.

    Can you see why it has left me wondering?

    1. Hi Ane! I certainly do see how you could be left wondering…

      I think in order to fully understand the intent of the scriptures we have to look at all the factors surrounding the passages and see what we are left with. Regarding the story of Lazarus at Abraham’s Bosom, we have to consider regardless of the use of names, is it a Parable/Allegory/Illustration or is it a true story? It must be one or the other because the answer to this question will determine what the lesson is intended to be.

      It appears to me that you understand this to be a “Parable” and if that is so, then we have to conclude that the rich man and Lazarus, the two dead people, ARE NOT in actuality talking to eachother. And that is the conclusion of the matter. If you believe it to truly be a true story that Jesus squeezed in between His telling of parables, then we would have to examine the Biblical evidence to see if that could be possible, but I don’t believe that’s your understanding.

      So what we need to then look at is what is the significance of the names, and how does the parable end? What lesson does it teach? So we have considered there are 3 identified in this story. 1) Lazarus (the beggar) 2) the rich man 3) Abraham(?)

      3) We should consider that Parables carry symbolism to aid in understanding. In this case it should be noted that Abraham is appropriately named the “Father” of the Nations, which would show the names significance in this setting.

      2) We should also consider the Rich man has NO NAME. Now HE IS speaking. Does the Bible ANYWHERE else show an unnamed dead man speaking? By cause of lack of supporting scriptural evidence I do not believe that God intended for us to consider that if there would be one place in scripture where -IN A PARABLE- an unnamed dead man spoke that that would give reason to the fact that contrary to a MULTITUDE of scriptures, that the dead actually DO NOT DIE. This is what I’ve gotten out of my study on the topic.

      1) What we should ask is “who would this Lazarus be”, and if he is not a real individual person, what is the significance of the name?

      If we consider that Lazarus, the “human” in the Bible, was the name of the one that Jesus raised from the dead in actuality… Literally, then we should consider what is the significance of that? What I believe is that the point made with this dead mans name being Lazarus, directly points to the fact that HE DID raise Lazarus from the dead, and yet… “THEY” did not believe. Basically giving the Parable an opportunity to point directly at what the actual even showing that, truly “They would not believe”…

      If you look at the moral of the story, Jesus concludes with these statements: “27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: 28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

      <<>> It continues:

      29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

      <<< ABRAHAM SAID BASICALLY: "THEY HAVE THE WORD OF GOD" LET THEM HONOR THAT… THE RICH MAN SAID (Paraphrased) "THAT WONT WORK, SEND THEM SOMETHING INCREDIBLE TO MAKE THEM SEE, THEN THEY WILL REPENT"

      31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, THOUGH one rose from the dead.

      Jesus specifically said "THOUGH" one rose from the dead… "neither would they be persuaded"

      So does it sound like this Parable is teaching the lesson that the Dead DO NOT truly die? Or does Jesus make clear in the end the purpose for pointing to "LAZARUS"? His words were prophetic. He DID RAISE LAZARUS FROM THE DEAD… And yet "THEY" did not believe, nor repent…

      Does this make a little more sense as to the application of this Parable?

    2. Ok, I want to also revisit the question of Moses as well… I believe these are your two biggest Biblical contentions… Lazarus and Moses? Here are my thoughts:

      Jude 1:9 states this: “9Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.”

      Why would Michael be contending with the devil for Moses’ body?

      While I agree that the entire sequence of a ressurection is not recorded, why would this passage be in the Bible if Moses was to be ressurected like everyone else at the “Last Trump”?

      These are my conclusions: First of all it is important to note, that anytime a ressurection transpired, that the body was always present. I have searched all of scriptures only to find that there are NO appearances from cover to cover (with the exception of Samuel which was an act of sorcery) that the spirit has been “ghostly” or transparent. On the mount of transfiguration Elijah and Moses both appeared Bodily. Jesus, although able to come and go supernaturally was also Physically ressurected. He told Thomas to touch him… At the ressurrection in the “Last day” The dead will come forth from their graves, transformed, leaving their graves empty, like Jesus’ grave is today. Do you know of anywhere in scripture where a ressurected individual is not ressurected physically? Consider Matthew 27:52 “And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,”

      So, if its true that the body is used for the ressurection proccess, then wouldn’t that give reason for the words recorded in Jude 1:9??? Otherwise, if Moses was dead and buried and there was no intent to ressurect, What would that passage be recorded in scripture for and why would the Archangel be contending with the devil for?

      This is what we know:
      1) Michael fought for the body, and rebuked Satan Jude 1:9
      2) Moses appeared in bodily form on the Mount of Transfiguration

      Those are the two Biblical factors we have as evidence

      The 1 physical earthly evidence is that like the body of Christ, No one has it or knows where it is…Its not here… On earth… So with those 3 hints what can we conclude? What are your thoughts?

  8. “‘I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”if you see from verse 23there is a discussion between saducees and Jesus. Saducees are people who dont believe in resurrection.

    Jesus tells them that there is resurrection and shows it from the phrase “God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob” and tells God is a god of Living; it means if there is no resurrection then there wont be any point in saying God is god of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

  9. Regarding resurrection of Moses you can read it in Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

    Why Satan has to contend over the body of Moses; it should be because Satan should have argued that Moses don’t deserve resurrection since he sinned.

    See my article on resurrection of Moses.

    https://thegladtidings.wordpress.com/2011/08/30/are-there-people-alive-since-1st-century/

  10. The word first in Bible at many times refers to the best. Num 18:12.

    Christ is not the first one to get resurrected but Bible calls Him as the first fruit. 1 cor 15: 20,23, Rev 1:5, acts 26:23,col 1:18. There are others who have resurrected before Jesus. Mat 27:52, 53, Mark 9:4,5,8, Jude 9.

    Col 1:15 says Jesus has the preeminence (first born) over created beings. Bible calls many people as first born though they may not be the first born. For example David is called as First born.Psa 89:27. Col 1:18 says He has the preeminence over any created beings.

    Many translations have translated Col 1:15 as “first born over all created beings”.

  11. John you asked me:

    “Why does Satan have to contend over where to bury Moses?”

    We are not told in Scripture. However, Jewish tradition teaches Moses’ body had to be hid so the Jews would not worship it. I can see Michael and Satan fighting over his body because Satan did not want it to be hid.

    John you asked me: “Why did Jesus said that there will be some disciples who will not see death until they see Jesus coming in his kingdom.”

    About this statement that Jesus made in Luke 9:27 & Matthew 16:28 and the Transfiguration:

    Are those passages referring to the 2nd Coming?

    Or are those passaged referring to the church age as Christ’s kingdom?

    Here’s how I understand it.

    Jesus makes that comment about His kingdom and shortly afterwards the transfiguration happens. At the transfiguration the disciples wanted to honor Moses, Elijah and Jesus.

    But God said, NO, listen to my Son! Then Moses and Elijah disappear.

    God was giving notice at the Transfiguration that Jesus would be the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets. Moses represents the Law, Elijah represents the Prophets.

    Jesus was about to fulfill the Law and Prophets, that’s what He came to do (Matthew 5:17). That is why He told his disciples not to mention what they say. It was not yet time for Jesus to fulfill the Law and the Prophets. That would have been sacrilege to a Jew.

    Jesus has already set up His kingdom on earth. This is why we can declare ourselves as citizens of heaven, here and now. We are described in Scripture as strangers to this world.

    Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; —Eph. 2:19

    That is why Eph. 2:6 can state we’ve already been raised up and seated beside Christ in heavenly places.

    Spiritually ALL of that is true now. His Kingdom is here, it arrived with the church age. We are just waiting for the 2nd Coming now so we can receive our imperishable bodies.

    All of his disciples, except Judas, were alive to experience the ushering in of His kingdom.

    John you said: “The only way that the Transfiguration could have been like the second coming is if Elijah represented the translated saints while Moses represented the resurrected saints.”

    IF the Transfiguration is portraying His 2nd Coming … Moses would represent all who have fallen asleep in Christ awaiting their resurrection bodies.

    John you said: There are others who have resurrected before Jesus. Mat 27:52, 53, Mark 9:4,5,8, Jude 9.

    I disagree with the Jude 9 text, I do not think Moses was raised, if he were, it would contradict 1 Cor. 15.

    Everyone who was raised from the dead before Jesus, died again. They never received imperishable bodies. The 1 Cor. 15 passage is about being raised, receiving an imperishable body and taken to heaven.

    ABOUT THE FIRST FRUITS:

    And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the BEGNINNING and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. —Col. 1:18

    Christ is the BEGINNING of the first born of the dead.

    That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the FIRST that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles. —Acts 26:23

    Christ is the first that should rise from the dead.

    But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. … But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. — 1 Cor. 15:20-23

    There is an order to the resurrection. Christ 1st and THEN those who are in Christ.

    And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, —Rev. 1:5

    Christ is the first begotten of the dead.

    In other words Scripture makes it clear Christ had to be the FIRST of the first fruits of the dead.

    It is my understanding that the term first fruits was to be Israel’s best and finest produce, from their first crop, it was to be an offering.

    A quick look at Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Fruits says this:

    First Fruits means to appropriately mark a portion of the produce of the field as belonging to God. In the Law of Moses there is a parallel between the offering of first fruits and the offering of the first-born male which opens the womb. The latter belongs to the Lord, and must be either sacrificed to him, or redeemed. This is completely different from tithing.

    Lets try plugging in the phrase (portion of the produce of the field that belongs to God) into the passage:

    “But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the FIRST (portion of the produce of the field that belongs to God) of those who are asleep.”

    “Nave’s Topical Bible” says: “FIRST FRUITS. …Offerings of, must be free from blemish, Num. 18:12;

    Lets try plugging in the phrase (to be free from blemish) into the passage:

    “But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first (to be free from blemish) of those who are asleep.”

    If the first fruits had to be without blemish, then Christ had to be the first of the first fruits, because so far He’s the only one without blemish … in order for us to become blemish free.

    Do you see what I’m saying?

    ABOUT Matthew 27:52,53

    “And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
    The passages says they were raised from the dead and went into the holy city (aka into Jerusalem) and were seen by many. It does not say they went to heaven. Also it would contradict 1 Cor. 15, if they had.

    Not sure what you were asking me about the 24 elders.

    1. Ane, so if you believe that regardless of the fact that Moses body was contended for that you still believe he is dead, then who do you suggest was at the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus and Elijah?

      Also, in your comments regarding the “Firstfruits” you stated: ““But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first (to be free from blemish) of those who are asleep.”
      If the first fruits had to be without blemish, then Christ had to be the first of the first fruits, because so far He’s the only one without blemish … in order for us to become blemish free.”

      The Word “Firstfruits in the Greek is:

      536. aparché: the beginning of a sacrifice, i.e. the first fruit
      Original Word: ἀπαρχή, ῆς, ἡ
      Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
      Transliteration: aparché
      Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ar-khay’)
      Short Definition: the first-fruits
      Definition: the first-fruits, the earliest crop of the year, hence also met., for example, of the earliest converts in a district; there is evidence in favor of rendering in some passages merely by: sacrifice, gift.

      The emphasis here should not be His “Perfection” but the fact that He was the “Sacrifice, Offering, and Gift.

      So if you consider the original text in the Greek Manuscripts you will find that the verse could more accurately be stated as:

      “But every man in his own order: Christ the “SACRIFICE”(first fruits); afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.”

      Was Moses a sacrifice? Does this make sense?

  12. Moses was on the mount of Transfiguration … before we can move on to understanding Moses … we have to come to an understanding first : ) about the firstfruits.

    John … I understand your position on the term firstfruits! I don’t disagree with what firstfruits means.

    I don’t feel like you are dealing with, or addressing my position on what the FIRST of the firstfruits means.

    None of the following passages indicate Jesus is just a PART of the Firstfruits.

    Instead they all indicate that He has to be the FIRST of the Firstfruits.

    Col 1:18 says Christ is the BEGINNING of the first born of the dead. It ends say He has to be FIRST in everything BEGINNING with the dead.

    Acts 26:23 says Christ is the FIRST that should rise from the firstfruits of the dead.

    1 Cor. 15:20-23 says there is an specific ORDER to the resurrection. Christ FIRST and THEN those who are in Christ.

    Rev. 1:5 Christ is the FIRST begotten of the dead.

  13. No. Moses was not a sacrifice.

    In 1 Cor. 15 … the context of what Paul is saying is not about sacrifices … the context is that Jesus had to be the FIRST one raised from the dead, given an imperishable body and taken to heaven.

    If Moses was raised, given and imperishable body before Christ and taken to heaven before Christ … that creates a contradiction to what Paul is teaching in 1 Cor. 15.

  14. Your reasoning is the firstfruit from dead is the first person resurrected from dead.
    But if you see verses like James 1:18 tells us that the firstfruit among someone need not be the literal first person it can be the best among them.

    Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. James 1:18

    Another example is when 144000 are called the firstfruits among saved.

    These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. Revelation 14:4

    Now if we take the firstfruits to be literal first persons the above passages will give us a contradiction.

    Few more examples is when David is called as firstborn among Kings. Psa 89:27 Here the firstborn does not mean that the first person who was born as king.

    Jesus is called as first born among creatures in col 1:15; does that mean he is the first ‘born’ creation no instead both the passages tell us that they are the best. David among Kings and Jesus among all beings.

  15. After arriving at the conclusion that the firstfruit and firstborn can be the best instead of literal first person let us read

    All the best of the oil, and all the best of the wine, and of the wheat, the firstfruits of them which they shall offer unto the LORD, them have I given thee. Numbers 18:12

    Here the best of the oil, the best of the vine and of the wheat are called the first fruits.

    Even though Moses Jud 9 and 24 elders Mat 27:52, 53 had resurrected before Jesus; Jesus is the first fruit among them because he is the best.

    Forexample there are many kings born before David but David is called the firstborn among Kings.

    In Matthew 16: 28 Jesus says Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Immediately after this Matthew records the incident of transfiguration.

    Are there disciples living now until second coming; all of them have died. Then how did they see son of man coming in His kingdom.

  16. Immediately after this Matthew records the incident of transfiguration in Mat 17

    Apostle Peter writes in 2 Peter 1:16-18 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (Peter is telling that he is not telling a fable when preaching about second coming), but were eyewitnesses of his majesty(but he really saw his glory). For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

    (words within brackets are by me)

    Peter says that he saw (perceive) the second coming on the Mount of Transfiguration. The only way that the Transfiguration could have been like the second coming is if Elijah represented the translated saints while Moses represented the resurrected saints.

    The Greek word ‘see’ should be translated as perceived.

  17. Forgive me guys … I’m drowning in responses to all of you. I just can’t keep up.

    Quickly though Marisol I’d like to respond to this:

    You asked me:

    Ane, so if you believe that regardless of the fact that Moses body was contended for that you still believe he is dead, then who do you suggest was at the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus and Elijah?

    It was Moses.

    At the Transfiguration, Moses represents all those who fell asleep in Christ and He represented the Law that was about to be fulfilled in Christ. Elijah represents the Prophets. Christ came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets.

    At the 2nd Coming God is bringing WITH Him, all those who fell asleep in Christ.

    The order of events looks like this.

    See 1 Thess. 4:14-17:

    1. When God returns, He will bring WITH Him those who fell asleep in Him. How can He bring something with Him, if they did not return to Him, when they fell asleep?

    2. The Lord will then descend, and the dead will rise.

    It sure seems to me that God is bringing with Him, will who fell asleep in Him and He will then reunite them with an imperishable resurrected body that He will raise from the grave.

    3. Then those who are alive will be caught up.

    Moses returned to God when he fell asleep in Christ. That is why he can be at the Transfiguration. Moses is still awaiting His bodily resurrection.

    Evidently our immaterial part of us, our spirit that returns to God when we fall asleep in Christ, is recognizable, without our bodies.

    That’s what the Transfiguration tells me and that’s what the Parable of the Richman and Beggar as told by Jesus tell me. It seems that all those people were recognizable to each other.

  18. That right, from my understanding, I see where you could logically dissect the word “Firstfruits” to come to that conclusion Ane, but one must consider the meaning of the original text, and according to the original language text; and that is not what the original Greek word which defined the word in that text meant. Yes, it was speaking about the “Order” of things, but if the ORIGINAL wording was not “FIRST” fruits, then how are we applying our own meaning? We are dividing a word that was not even originally there if we are to start evaluating about what the word “First” means in the word “Firstfruits”…

    You say Christ had to be the “FIRST” of the firstfruits, but how can that be right if he was the ONLY sinless sacrifice? Can we all be worthy sacrifices?

    There are few instances that require intense study in their application to state of the Dead, one is this text, another is the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich man, and the other is the inconclusive amount of supporting scripture as to whether Moses was actually ressurected when his body was contended for or not.

    1)The facts are that Lazarus and the Rich man – undisputably WAS a Parable.
    2)Moses is ALIVE (as per transfiguration); his body WAS recorded as being fought for, and his body is not here on Earth; Leading us to consider that there is at least as much weight of evidence to the idea that he was raised -vs.- not raised…

    3)And that word “FIRST-FRUITS” according to Strong’s Greek Concordance, does not indicate that He was literally the “FIRST” to be ressurected, but is translated as ((Definition: the first-fruits, the earliest crop of the year, hence also met., for example, of the earliest converts in a district; there is evidence in favor of rendering in some passages merely by: sacrifice, gift.))

    If we have established that the evidence is at least inconclusive, I believe we should start looking at what the Bible says about what death actually is. If the idea here is whether the dead are actually dead or not I want to ask 3 questions:

    1) Only one place in the bible it states that we “SHALL NOT SURELY DIE” But did God say this??? Consider Genesis 3:4, what GOD SAID is in the verse before that. Which verse better describes what you believe regarding death?

    2) Have you ever seen anywhere in the Bible where anyone has appeared in bodily form that was NOT ressurected physically? In other words, have you seen anywhere where The Prophets, God, or Jesus raised anyone in a “Translucent” spirit format? Is that type of Manifestation Biblically recorded as being from God?

    3) Jesus had to DIE in order to have been able to provide remission for our sin. Do you believe that Jesus just transcended to a type of Purgatory, and came back without truly dying? And if so, by what “Death” do we have the right to “LIVE”?

    Lastly, how do you reconcile the very verse we’ve been speaking about?

    1Corinthians 15:20-23 But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    >>>>But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits;<<>>> AFTERWARD; they that are Christ’s at his coming. <<<

    … if the saints are raised AFTERWARD, AT THE TIME OF CHRIST'S COMING, then who are these that do not actually "sleep" but rather transcend and continue to live on a different realm of sorts, as believed by way of ancient mythology and taught by proponents of the New Age movement?

    Can you show me clear Bible evidence that states that we DO NOT "SURELY DIE" or "SLEEP" Where it comes from the Creator and not the Father of Lies??

  19. Marisol … about the Firstfruits,

    None of these passages indicate Jesus is just a part of the Firstfruits of the dead.

    All of these passage say specifically that He has to be the FIRST of the Firstfruits of the dead.

    And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the BEGNINNING and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. —Col. 1:18

    Col 1:18 says Christ is the BEGINNING of the first born of the dead. It ends say He has to be FIRST in everything beginning with the dead.

    That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the FIRST that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles. —Acts 26:23

    Acts 26:23 says Christ is the FIRST that should rise from the firstfruits.

    But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. … But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. — 1 Cor. 15:20-23

    1 Cor. 15:20-23 says there is an order to the resurrection. Christ FIRST and THEN those who are in Christ.

    And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, —Rev. 1:5

    Rev. 1:5 Christ is the FIRST begotten of the dead.

  20. Marisol

    My answer to question #1. Satan said that lie.

    I see evidence of 3 kinds of deaths in Scripture:
     
    1. Spiritual death AKA separation from God.

    Rev. 20:12 talks about the dead being judged … the dead described here have actually been raised from the dead and yet they are still being described as the dead … in this case “death” simply means separation from God. This passage is about the resurrection of the wicked.

    God had pre-warned Adam and Eve that ON THE DAY that they would eat the would SURELY DIE. But they didn’t die a physical death did they?

    “but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.” —Gen. 2:17.

    Of course that was the moment in time in which they became perishable beings … but they didn’t actually die ON THE DAY the ate, which is what God said would happen.

    I hold to the view that what happened to Adam and Eve in the garden was an actual spiritual death, immediate separation from God.

    Because of them, now everyone is born dead separated from God, rebels against God, children of wrath (see Ephesians).

    2. Physical death AKA bodily death.

    3. Eternal death AKA the death that never dies.

  21. Marisol

    My answer to question #2. You asked:

    Have you ever seen anywhere in the Bible where anyone has appeared in bodily form that was NOT ressurected physically?

    No Marison, I have not. In Scripture, all who were resurrected were resurrected in physical bodies, however they were not resurrected as imperishable bodies.

    They couldn’t have been, because Jesus had to be the first one. This is significant fact. That’s how we know Jesus is the Messiah. He had to be the first one.

    You also asked me:

    In other words, have you seen anywhere where The Prophets, God, or Jesus raised anyone in a “Translucent” spirit format? Is that type of Manifestation Biblically recorded as being from God?

    Yes. The transfiguration. Moses was in spirit form.

  22. Marisol

    My answer to question #3. You asked:

    Jesus had to DIE in order to have been able to provide remission for our sin.

    We agree.

    You also asked:

    Do you believe that Jesus just transcended to a type of Purgatory, and came back without truly dying? And if so, by what “Death” do we have the right to “LIVE”?

    No I do not believe Jesus was in Purgatory. I don’t believe in Purgatory.

    Jesus truly died.

  23. Marisol

    You asked:

    Can you show me clear Bible evidence that states that we DO NOT “SURELY DIE” or “SLEEP” Where it comes from the Creator and not the Father of Lies??

    Marisol,

    YES … I can … I would say that’s exactly what Paul taught.

    In 2 Cor. 5:1-4 we find Paul using two metaphors which describe our mortal and immortal bodies as both a type of clothing and as a dwelling place.

    Here we find Paul describing our mortal bodies as an earthly tent clothing us, and our immortal bodies as a heavenly dwelling clothing us.

    What does Paul mean when he says, “…when we are clothed, we will not be found naked” (verse 3)?

    The use of Paul’s two metaphors indicates that SOMETHING dwells within us and is clothed by our bodies, when it becomes unclothed it is described as naked.

    What exactly is that naked part of man that still exists when he is not wearing his body any longer?

    In the context of this passage Paul repeatedly refers to that naked SOMETHING as actually being us, by the use of the word “we.”

    Verse 1: We live in the earthly tent.

    Verse 2: We groan inside that tent, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling.

    Verse 3: When we are clothed, we will not be found naked.

    Verse 4: While we are in this tent, we groan and we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed.

    Verses 5-10 paint a more complete picture of what Paul is teaching. Again notice all the “we” statements in them:

    Verse 6: We are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord.

    Verse 8: We are confident and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

    Verse 9: Whether we are at home in the body or away from it.

    Verse 10: We must appear before the judgment seat so we can receive what is due us for the things done in the body.

    What does it mean when Paul teaches we are away from the Lord while we are at home in these earthly bodies?

    But with the Lord when we are away from from our earthly bodies?

    Paul is teaching us about life after death and what happens to that SOMETHING that dwells with in us when it is no longer clothed by our bodies. Paul is teaching us that this SOMETHING:

    • Is naked when it is without our body (see verse 3).

    • Is actually at home with the Lord when it is without our body (see verse 8)

    • Still has a goal to please God, while away from it’s body (see verse 9).

    It simply doesn’t work to say that this SOMETHING is my breath because verse 9 teaches that even when we are away from the body, our goal is to still please God.

    How can I continue to have a goal to please God if I no longer have a conscious existence after I die, or my spirit is only my breath?

    I can only conclude from Paul’s message that this SOMETHING is my spirit. An immaterial part of me, that continues on as a living conscious part of my being when I die, otherwise it can’t have a goal to please God.

    SUMMARY:

    • Our bodies cloth SOMETHING that dwells with in us.

    • That SOMETHING is me.

    • That SOMETHING becomes naked when it leaves my body and then it goes to be with the Lord. This explains why the souls under the altar in Rev. are asking for robes.

    • That SOMETHING had a goal to continue pleasing the Lord.

    • There is no way SOMETHING can have a goal and strive to continue to please God, if that SOMETHING isn’t alive and conscious.

  24. Marisol you asked me:

    … how do you reconcile the very verse we’ve been speaking about?
    1Corinthians 15:20-23 But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    >>>>But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits;<>> AFTERWARD; they that are Christ’s at his coming. <<<

    … if the saints are raised AFTERWARD, AT THE TIME OF CHRIST'S COMING, then who are these that do not actually "sleep" but rather transcend and continue to live on a different realm of sorts, as believed by way of ancient mythology and taught by proponents of the New Age movement?

    Marisol,

    Forgive me I'm not sure I understand the question.

    I see Scripture teaching that when we die, if we are found to be in Christ, the immaterial part of us that is spirit returns to God.

    The body is physically dead and goes into the grave to await resurrection and become imperishable.

    My understanding of what Pagans believe is that for example the Gnostics considered all matter to be evil, (the world, the earth, our bodies).

    They taught that only the spirit is good, so how one lives with their body on earth was completely irrelevant to one's spiritual condition. They taught people were free to do with their bodies as they pleased because in their afterlife, their disembodied spirit had no correlation to life in this world. 

    Whereas what Paul is teaching is that there most certainly is a correlation between what we experience in this body now and in what is in the life to come. 

    I do believe we have an immaterial part of us that is alive and conscious and separate from our flesh material part of us. 

    Romans 8:10-11 "But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you."

    Note the lower case spirit as opposed to the upper case Spirit in that verse.

  25. Guys, forgive me I’ve tried to go through and give answers to all questions. If I’ve missed something then know it wasn’t intentional and please ask again. I’m a bit overwhelmed with all I have to respond to.

  26. Sorry Ane, I just saw your reply. I don’t mean to bombard you, now i’m reading to better understand your position… not so sure I understand what you believe…. I thought you believed that we are not really raised from the dead during the ressurection, but that our soul is caught up to Christ (which the Bible says we are) with the distinction being that we are still concious and not asleep. Using Moses as a possible example of that, despite the fact that (FOR SOME REASON IMPORTANT ENOUGH TO RECORD) the Archangel DID contend for his body.

    Wouldn’t this put us all in Heaven or Hell until the Ressurection, …BEFORE the Judgement? Is there anywhere else in scripture that describes this getting caught up to the Lord in an alive state, where the saints are enjoying the bliss of Heaven or the fires of Hell until the second return of the Lord?

    How do you reconcile verses in that case like:

    Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

    John 5:28-29, “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

    Psalms 13:3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

    Psalms 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

    Psalms 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

    Ecclesiastes 9:5,6 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

    How does God ressurect the already “alive/awake/living”? And How do you reconcile being asleep and being awake at the same time?

    God Bless,

    Marisol

  27. Dear Ane; take your time, its not my intent to debate but to understand what you believe, and see if there is truly strong Biblical evidence against what I have studied, and if not to possibly share what I’ve learned according to scripture with you.

    God Bless You!

    Marisol

  28. Marisol,

    My position is this until I can be proven otherwise : ) … unless someone can show me why First of the firstfruits of the dead, Beginning of the firstborn of the dead, Each in his own order, First Christ will be raised and THEN everyone else who has died … why those phrases don’t really mean Christ has to be the FIRST … then I have look at other possibilities for what happens when someone dies.

    Right now I see Moses’ resurrection contradicting Scripture.

    BTW for what it’s worth I called a Rabbi this afternoon to find out what Judaism knew about a resurrected Moses. He was shocked by such a teaching.

    Jewish tradition teaches Michael and Satan where fighting over the body because God wanted Moses hidden so no one could worship Moses.

    Anyway, … since it is a contradiction to Scripture to teach Moses was resurrected then I have to believe our spirit returns to God when we die, it is alive, interactive and recognizable as us. It is with Him awaiting our bodily resurrection. At which point it will be reunited with our glorified bodies.

    The significance of why Jude talks about this event with Michael and Satan is to teach us something about rebuking Satan. Michael didn’t dare rebuke him. He asked the Lord to do it instead.

    You asked me:

    Wouldn’t this put us all in Heaven or Hell until the Ressurection, …BEFORE the Judgement? Is there anywhere else in scripture that describes this getting caught up to the Lord in an alive state, where the saints are enjoying the bliss of Heaven or the fires of Hell until the second return of the Lord?

    I think the parable Jesus told teaches just that.

    Those OT passages you quoted are describing what happens to the body.

    I would also add that in the famous Ecc. 9 passage … note the phrase “under the sun” in other words, the dead know not anything under the sun. Meaning they don’t know about anything on earth.

    I would also add that the New Testament makes clear many things that were not revealed in the OT. So we must use the NT to interpret the OT passages and not the other way around.

    You also asked: How does God ressurect the already “alive/awake/living”?

    There is no resurrection for them. After the dead are raised, those who were still alive at the 2nd Coming will be translated and receive glorified bodies. (See 1 Thess. 4:15)

    You also asked: And How do you reconcile being asleep and being awake at the same time?

    Sleep describes what the dead body looks like. It doesn’t describe the soul.

    Actually think about that … when you are asleep … don’t you still maintain some level of awareness?

  29. Marisol, thank you. I have sincerely appreciated the spirit of dialogue, caring and sharing that I’m experiencing on this website. I said this in one of my posts somewhere already. I want to open myself up to be scrutinized for every thought I think and every belief I state. I want others to hold me accountable. I want to bend my knee to Scripture. I want to rightly divide the Word.

    I want to know that when I’m done and settled into my beliefs, that I have given ALL sides of the equation a fair evaluation as well and heard all the arguments out there.

    I’m sincerely madly in love with Jesus! He met me on my own Damacus Road, and I’ve never been the same. I want to honor Him and search His Word thoroughly.

    Thanks for helping me process.

  30. Hi again, Ane. I’m glad we established this when your coming across with just words, its hard to let the person on the other side know that you are not trying to debate, but to examine perspectives… Let’s take it point at a time.

    Can I ask you a sincere question? I have studied this out extensively and there are two things that I’ve noticed about what the Bible has to say about how people appear after they’re dead.

    1) Everyone recorded in scripture that I’ve seen resurrected – was ressurected BODILY. Have you found anywhere in scripture that states that there had been any ghostly sightings that were an act of God?

    The only exceptions to this was Saul channeling Samuel through a Medium, where she brought up a “spirit” from the ground… (in otherwords she did not bring HIS spirit DOWN from Heaven; And in a “Parable” which was designed to be an illustration of a deeper lesson (in other words not a true story).

    2) Can you show me anywhere else in scripture that gives evidence of another spirit realm, or evidence of anyone having comeback in spirit form the way they do nowadays? Translucent, etc.?

    Thanks looking forward to examining this issue deeper!! 🙂

    Marisol

  31. Hi Marisol!

    Well … I think this IS a debate that is examining perspectives … BUT I don’t view that as a bad thing, do you? Debate can be a healthy and very productive information gathering process. Listening to debates helps me decide who I’ll vote for.

    I think we all know when a debate turns argumentative and that becomes unproductive. But I’m here opening myself up to be debated and challenged.

    I agree with you, resurrected people in the Bible are resurrected in bodily form. BUT there is no evidence in the Bible that they are resurrected with imperishable, glorified bodies. They all had to have died again.

    Marisol, I have no idea what a spirit form looks like. I could not speak as to whether or not it is ghostly or translucent.

    All I know for sure is that at the Transfiguration, Moses’ spirit was recognizable.

    I would also add that the record of Scripture says God is Spirit … in other words He does not exist in bodily form.

    “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” —John 4:24

    BTW … for what it is worth, I told you I called a Rabbi yesterday.

    I asked him what Judaism’s traditional stance was on the state of the dead. He told me that traditional Judaism believes in an afterlife and that believers go to a place called Abraham’s busom, while unbelievers go somewhere else.

    He said Jews do not view either of these places as purgatory.

    He said that beyond that … Jews try to remain humble on the specifics of what any of that means, because the Old Testament just is not that clear on what happens to a person after they die.

    I also dug through the writings of the historian Jospehus … his record of the Jewish belief of an afterlife, closely affirms what the Rabbi told me, and Jesus’ parable.

    The rabbi’s response makes sense to me. Since the Jews do not acknowledge the New Testament, which makes many things clear about the dead, that the OT does not, I can understand his position on the Jews remaining humble when speaking with great certainty about what they know.

    BUT I think it is significant that they have an understanding of an afterlife, that closely resembles what Jesus taught in His parable.

  32. Few points which I want to address.

    1. Is Jews belief reliable. We can’t ask them about what they belief in state of dead to interpret what is given in Bible.

    Please see the below link which tells us about the Pagan beliefs mixed in Jews teachings and how Jesus and Paul used those teaching to prove a point.

    https://thegladtidings.wordpress.com/2011/08/30/parable-of-richman-and-lazarus/

    2. As per the popular teaching

    The wicked burn in Hell after their death and brought back to judgement seat at second coming and again sent to hell to burn for millions of years. They are showing a God who is saddist burning sinners forever and ever without relief.

    Bible tells us that both Wicked and Sinners will be annihilated. For some it is few minutes burning and others it is longer. For Satan it will be longer than anyone.

    Rev 20:9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    When talking about the Fate of Satan in Eze 28: 18Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

    John 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (When righteous will have eternal life the wicked will perish, i.e., cease to exist)

    3. Why is Jesus called as Firstfruit when Moses and 24 Elders had resurrected already.

    In case Jesus had sinned while he was in earth as mere incarnated human (He lived a sinless life with the power of a normal Human) then fallen humans unincluding Moses would have no way for salvation. Their only hope is Jesus has to live a sinless life and die for their sins. It is His resurrection which brought hope of resurrection to every other dead saints. Even Moses was resurrected because Godhead believed in the ability of Jesus to overcome sin and die as eternal sacrifice in His incarnation. That is why Jesus is called as firstfruit smong dead. All the dead have hope of resurrection because Jesus resurrected. If he had failed then there is no resurrection for anyone.

    hope this helps.

  33. Ane please think about this.

    What is the wages for sin? What does Bible say as the wages fo sin?

    Is it Death or eternal torment?

    Jesus was punished on our behalf so we will not face the eternal death. The punishment He received for sins is death not torment in hell fire

  34. The wages of sin is death & eternal punishment.

    For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. —Romans 6:23

    “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” —Matthew 25:46

    Jesus was punished on our behalf so that BELIEVERS will not ever have to receive eternal punishment.

  35. John, I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on the Firstfruits of the dead.

    I can’t ignore all those passages that say Jesus had to be the FIRST of the firstfruits of the dead.

    Thanks for the time you spent trying to help me process that.

  36. “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” —Matthew 25:46

    Eternal punishing or eternal punishment. they have 2 different meanings. Permanent punishing and permanent punishment. One is eternal in duration and other one is eternal in the sentence.

    Did Jesus too the punishment of our sins? if yes was it a eternal punishment or eternal punishing. Did He received death or eternal torment as the punishment for our sins.

  37. John,

    If Matthew 25:46 is all we had … I think you make a good point.

    But Revelation also says this, there is no rest for them day or night forever.

    And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.” (Revelation 14:9-12)

    At His death Jesus experienced God’s eternal wrath for every single person’s sin, believer and unbeliever alike.

    He paid everyone’s debt in full.

    Those who don’t accept the debt He paid for them … will receive the wages that are then due, owed to them … which is eternal punishment.

  38. Well before commenting on burning forever and ever I want to ask you; how do you reconcile what you have concluded above with the below verses

    Rev 20:9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    When talking about the Fate of Satan in Eze 28: 18Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

    John 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (When righteous will have eternal life the wicked will perish, i.e., cease to exist)

  39. Marisol, Since God is Spirit and we are created in His own image, why would it be so hard for us to imagine that we have spirits that closely resemble His?

  40. John you said:
    In case Jesus had sinned while he was in earth as mere incarnated human (He lived a sinless life with the power of a normal Human) then fallen humans unincluding Moses would have no way for salvation. Their only hope is Jesus has to live a sinless life and die for their sins. It is His resurrection which brought hope of resurrection to every other dead saints. Even Moses was resurrected because Godhead believed in the ability of Jesus to overcome sin and die as eternal sacrifice in His incarnation. That is why Jesus is called as firstfruit smong dead. All the dead have hope of resurrection because Jesus resurrected. If he had failed then there is no resurrection for anyone.

    From the Bible alone, how would you support your case that Jesus could have sinned and blown the whole deal, and how would you support your case that Jesus had to overcome sin?

  41. John

    About Rev 20

    In verse 11 … I’m wondering why are the dead still being described as the dead, standing, receiving judgment, in this passage, AFTER they’ve been raised to life? How can the dead stand and receive judgment, if they are still dead?

    In the resurrection of the saints … they are not described as dead after they are raised to life.

    I would suggest that death = separation from God, not a state of non-existence.

    That’s certainly what death meant in the garden when Adam and Eve died on the day they ate the fruit.

    The beast and the false prophet (who are supposedly human) are thrown alive into the lake of fire for 1,000 years. Everyone else with them was killed.

    After the 1,000 years Satan is released. He once again deceives the nations. The nations join Satan in attempting to go after the Saints. But fire comes down and devours them. 

    After they have been devoured Satan is thrown into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet are also and they will be tormented with no rest day and night forever.

    How can one experience torment with no rest if they don’t exist anymore?

    How can a loving God allow the beast and the false prophet to be tormented in fire for 1,000 years?

    About Ezekiel 28

    What about this passage, do devour and destroy mean dead?

    Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. —Matthew 10:28

    I do need to study the greek meaning behind the word devour, destroy and perish.

    About John 3:16

    First of all John teaches that the righteous HAVE eternal life at the moment of their belief. They are not waiting on a second coming to receive it. They’ve already been declared citizens of heaven (Eph. 2).

    “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.” —John 5:24

    John 3:16 says those who HAVE eternal life will NEVER perish. It’s not talking about the wicked perishing here, (even though we know they will).

    Which is proof to me that death is not a state of none existence. When a believer dies, he must go on living in spirit form … because he is promised he will never perish.

    John … I most certainly don’t want hell to be eternal. I have not fond attachment to that doctrine!

  42. Thank God.

    Satan will not only be burned up and devoured by fire He will also be brought to Ashes.

    Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ASHES upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold
    thee. Ezekiel 28:18

    Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

    (WICKED WILL BE DEVOURED)

    Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    DEVIL WILL BURN FOR AGES AND AGES UNTIL HE IS BROUGHT TO ASHES AS MENTIONED IN EZE 28:18

    The greek word forever should have been translated as ages and ages.

    A proper understanding of hell fire can be learned from a similar hell fire in the past.

    2 Peter 2:6—”And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly.”

    The fire of Sodom and Gomorrow is the example of what will happen to ungodly.

    Morever the Sodom and Gomorrow fire is called as ETERNAL FIRE.

    Jude 7—”Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of ETERNAL FIRE.” (Emphasis supplied)

    Also read the below links which will be a great help to you.

    http://www.thetruthabouthell.net/

    http://www.worldincrisis.org/Defending-God/defendinggod4.htm

    Also to have correct understanding of entire REv 20 please see the below link

    http://www.1000yearmillennium.com/

  43. After all the other wicked burn satan burns further for ages and ages because. Eugene gives the below calculation in his book Deeper Final

    That the scapegoat (representing satan) bears the sins of the congregation in the Day of
    Atonement
    • That there have been an estimated 35 to 70 billion persons alive since
    creation
    • That if only 1 in 700 of 35 billion were saved at last, that would be 50
    million
    • That if the Devil burned only two minutes for each of these persons,
    that would come to 190 years.

  44. Malachi 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yes, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

    Matthew 10:28—”And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

    Please keep the above verses as key

  45. John,

    Scripture teaches the Scapegoat had to be without blemish. Lev. 16 also teaches that the High Priest laid his hands over the Scapegoat’s head and confessed the sins of Israel over it and says atonement was made with the Scapegoat.

    Satan is not unblemished. We don’t confess our sins to him, and he doesn’t atone for our sin. The book of Hebrews even compares the scapegoat to Christ, it says that both were led outside the city gates to carry sin away. In neither case, the Day of Atonement, nor in Christ’s atonement … was sin eradicated by any sense of the word, in order for atonement to be complete.

  46. John please compare these 2 verses … does it sound to you like Isaiah is describing Satan as the bearer of our iniquities?

    “And the scapegoat shall BEAR UPON HIM ALL THEIR INIQUITIES unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness. And Aaron shall come into the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall put off the linen garments, which he put on when he went into the holy place, and shall leave them there…” —Leviticus 16:22-23 (KJV).  

    “Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see his seed, He shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand. He shall see of the travail of His soul, and shall be satisfied: by His knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for HE SHALL BEAR THEIR INIQUITIES. Isaiah 53:10-11 (KJV)

  47. Ane who is scapegoat is off topic to this thread “on state of Dead”.. I will soon add a post on scape goat and will provide you the link. we can continue the discussion there. Thanks.

  48. It’s odd that all of you ignore the fact that in Judaism (remember, the people who WROTE the Bible the God’s guidance), hell refers to the grave, not some place of eternal suffering. The reason I put it this way (refering to the original writers) is that a lot is lost in translation. Even the blog writer acknowledges this. the kjv bible makes this painfully obvious, when it refers to excitement of going to Jerusalem for ‘easter’. It minimizes the fact that Jesus was at the Temple during Chanukah (jn10:21, I believe). There are other mistranslations, but those start to tear at christianity itself and that is not the point here.

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